SAT & ACT Accommodations with Jordan Schwartz – College Bound Mentor Podcast #20

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Welcome to the College Bound Mentor podcast! Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all.

This is Episode #20 and you’ll hear all things SAT & ACT accommodations with Green Light Education Founder & CEO Jordan Schwartz. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re enjoying the show!

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College Bound Mentor Podcast Episode #20: SAT & ACT Accommodations with Jordan Schwartz

There’s a lot to consider when it comes to SAT & ACT accommodations. But, they can be well worth your time if they’re relevant to you. In this episode, we welcome on special guest Jordan Schwartz, Founder & CEO of Green Light Education. He’s been teaching the SAT, ACT, and LSAT since 2016 and manages a team of highly-skilled academic & test prep tutors. Hear whether you should apply for SAT & ACT accommodations, when to submit, the most common types of accommodations, ethical considerations when it comes to testing accommodations, and how the SAT compares to the ACT. This episode covers everything from testing accommodations to exam timing. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • How did Jordan become a test prep guru?
  • What are some myths & truths about testing accommodations?
  • Who is eligible for SAT & ACT accommodations?
  • Can you get testing accommodations with Dyslexia?
  • How do you submit for SAT & ACT accommodations?
  • What percent of LSAT students get accommodations?
  • How do you get extended time for the SAT & ACT tests?
  • What are the hardest testing accommodations to get?

Connect with Jordan on LinkedIn and at GreenLight.Education, check out his Accommodations Guides for the SAT, ACT, and LSAT, and Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com.

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

  • SAT & ACT Accommodations with Jordan Schwartz
    • [0:19] Welcome to College Bound Mentor
    • [0:25] Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, Stefanie Forman
    • [0:30] Connect with Jordan on LinkedIn and at GreenLight.Education, check out his Accommodations Guides for the SAT, ACT, and LSAT, and Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com
    • [1:08] How did Jordan & Lisa meet?
    • [2:02] Did Jordan know Lisa’s daughter at Brandeis University?
    • [2:44] How did Jordan become a test prep guru?
    • [5:05] What are the requirements for SAT & ACT accommodations?
    • [7:24] Check out Jordan’s Accommodations Guides for the SAT, ACT, and LSAT
    • [7:32] What are some myths & truths about testing accommodations?
    • [9:00] Who is eligible for SAT & ACT accommodations?
    • [10:48] Can you get testing accommodations with Dyslexia?
    • [14:32] How do you submit for SAT & ACT accommodations?
    • [15:32] When should you submit for SAT & ACT accommodations?
    • [18:04] How do you get extended time for the SAT & ACT tests?
    • [21:08] What are the hardest testing accommodations to get?
    • [22:08] What are the ethical considerations when it comes to testing accommodations?
    • [22:55] How frequently are SAT & ACT accommodations granted?
    • [26:35] Should you get a neuropsych exam before submitting for testing accommodations?
    • [29:15] What percent of LSAT students get accommodations?
    • [30:32] How do testing accommodations translate to going to college?
    • [33:24] How does the SAT compare to the ACT?
    • [36:24] What advice does Jordan have for students seeking SAT & ACT accommodations?
    • [41:14] Connect with Jordan on LinkedIn and at GreenLight.Education, check out his Accommodations Guides for the SAT, ACT, and LSAT, and Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com
    • Theme Song: “Happy Optimistic Americana” by BDKSonic

What is the College Bound Mentor podcast?

Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie know college. They also know students. With over 30 years combined experience mentoring young people, they’ll show you why understanding yourself is the key to finding the right college. Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all – giving you valuable insight to survive the college application process and beyond. Hosted by Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, and Stefanie Forman, Partners of College Bound Mentor.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Jordan Schwartz 0:06
The time is always on your side.

Lisa Bleich 0:08
Hey, CBMers, welcome back to College Bound Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. We’re your co-hosts, Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie, and on today’s episode, we’re excited to welcome Jordan Schwartz, the Founder of Green Light Education. Jordan has been teaching the SAT a CT and LSAT Since 2016 and has helped hundreds of students achieve top scores on each exam. He founded green light education with the goal of delivering high quality digital test prep and academic tutoring at scale. He manages a team of talented instructors across the US who tutor a wide range of exams and subjects, including the GMAT GRE and many AP and IB courses. And today, we’re going to discuss the who, what, where, why and how of testing accommodations for the SAT and the AC, T. So I was introduced to Jordan last year, actually, through a friend of mine from Middle High School, Allison Hastings, I think she met you Jordan at a coffee shop or something like

Jordan Schwartz 1:15
that, at a dog park, at a dog park near my mom’s house. When I was visiting for some holiday or something, it was very chance. And we just started chatting. And then she mentioned, oh, I know this woman, Lisa. And I was like, Oh, I think I heard of that name. And then one thing led to another, and here

Lisa Bleich 1:28
we are, and that’s right. So then we started chatting, and then I’d recommended you to one of my clients who did really well in the LSATs with your help. So we also went, both went to Brandeis, so we had that, you know, instant connection, right? We started talking. Never mind that you graduated the same year as my daughter. But we won’t, you know,

we will go there. Oh, it’s

Jordan Schwartz 1:47
just a number, you know, yeah, it’s just

Lisa Bleich 1:51
Rebecca. Rebecca, the only one that went

Stefanie Forman 1:53
to, oh, you all meet at Brandeis, the same brand so I don’t think you knew each other, though,

Jordan Schwartz 1:59
to be honest, going to Brandeis, that name sounds like it could be someone who goes to Brandeis. Yeah, the name doesn’t sound familiar to me. He

Lisa Bleich 2:08
wasn’t there much. I mean, she met her husband freshman year, and, you know, so she was a, she was a cross most of the time. But anyway, that’s, that’s a story from another day. So anyway, so when we talked, we just spoke this week, and we were talking about, you know, what you’re doing with your stuff. And one of the things that we talked about was having you come on the podcast and really talk about what we get, a lot of questions about, which is getting accommodations for standardized testing. It’s always a hot topic, and you were gracious enough to say that you would come on. So why don’t you, first of all, welcome. So thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. And it would be great if you could just start off telling us a little bit about, like, how did you become a test prep guru, and in particular, an expert in seeking testing accommodations? Yeah, test

Jordan Schwartz 2:50
prep I hope that. I guess I’m a test prep guru, having done this for almost 10 years now, but I still feel like I’m learning things every day. I became I got into this in a kind of unique way. I started with the tutoring, a lot of students will like do really well in the LSAT, and then decide to go teach that. I was teaching in college for a firm in Massachusetts, teaching sat and a CT. And then I moved to DC after college, and there worked for another firm that needed someone to teach the LSAT. So I went and worked with their tutor, learned the LSAT, took the LSAT, but never did it with the intention of going to law school. It just was something that it was kind of an intellectual and academic pursuit for me. And along the way, I, you know, for the last probably seven, eight years, seven years, I’ve been teaching on my own, and then for the last four and a half years, I’ve actually had my company, and a lot of what I’ve become an expert at is just stuff that I’ve had to work with students on along the way. And so I have a lot of students ask me questions that, some of which I just say, you know, send to people like, like Lisa, or any of the other partners that I work with. But on things like accommodations, it really started out as just someone was like, Hey, do you know anything about this? And then I went and did a bunch of research, and I did more research, and then we tried it, and this didn’t work, and that didn’t work, and then we figured out more things. And then I, you know, had to keep up with the guidance. And so, you know, it’s just one of those things that I now recommend to certain my students. And we’ll kind of, it’s like an added service that I just include in all my packages with students, you know, of just assessing, saying, you know, hey, is this something that’s viable? And then understanding the documentation requirements, submitting it, making sure we hit all the deadlines and everything. And everything. It’s I think of myself as kind of a jiu jitsu fighter when it comes to bureaucracy, and I’ve just gotten really good at figuring out what forms are needed for this and that and that, and when do we need it? Who can we get it from? And I think it’s just the geek in me that enjoys kind of, you know, getting all that stuff in order and submitting it. And so I’ve had a lot of successful students, and I’ve also learned a lot about kind of the ethical side of things, and the various implications that a lot of parents are curious about, that I’m happy to talk more about today. Well, right? I mean,

Lisa Bleich 4:52
that’s definitely something that we want to go over. But one you said that sort of getting all the documentations in place. But what are some of the documentations that you would need to get. Testing Accommodations. Great

Jordan Schwartz 5:01
question. So it really depends. First and foremost, you know, we’re talking kind of about the s, a T and a c t here today. And so there are different, different requirements. So just as a as an example, right off the top, the A C T will accept your existing IEP, or 5014, as sufficient proof for most accommodations. Now, a lot of this is kind of in the weeds. And as I mentioned, I put together these guides on S A T and a T AC accommodations that kind of do get into a lot of the nitty gritty, but at a high level is kind of what I’m going to try to talk about. And so the A C T will accept an A, I, E, P, 504, the A C T will accept it. The S A T will not. So the S A T, unlike the A C T, requires things like cognitive ability tests, fine motor skill integration tests, academic achievement tests, various things that you may have to go to a provider to have done. You may already well have had those things done for your child or so that that’s certainly something that if you already have an IEP 504, chances are you will have one of these supporting documentary requirements. But just to keep in mind that there are distinct requirements for both, and it’s not a blanket. You just submit one thing and you need it. So the guidance on both of their websites are pretty strong in terms of what you need. It also breaks down by the specific type of accommodation that you need. But basically everything is listed on both of their websites, the A, C, T website, and the College Board website in terms of what’s needed. And the vast majority of you know, as I’ve always said to people, if you legitimately have the disability that is listed, it should not be a problem whatsoever to gather the documentation all. The other thing I would say, though, is like it is the type of thing that you should not delay on. I’ve had a lot of students who i i start very early in the process of my students, of saying, Hey, if you want accommodations, let’s start the process now, because it’s going to take time to do this and this and this. And the reality is, a lot of students will wait till the last minute, and sometimes then have to push test dates because they didn’t get their documentation in on time. So we can talk more about dates and deadlines and guidance around that. And even between the two tests, like there’s, there’s varying degrees of strictness in terms of which exam accepts which stuff when. And so it Yeah, unfortunately, there’s not really a simple answer, but basically, the earlier you start, the better you should be able to get everything

Lisa Bleich 7:16
right. And I think that’s that’s with everything. And you mentioned that you have a guide that you put together, and we will have that guide available to our listeners that you can do in our podcast. We always like to ask guests, what are some Myths and Truths About testing accommodations? So give us a couple myths and a couple truths. So

Jordan Schwartz 7:33
I would say the most important truth is that if you genuinely have a need for a testing accommodation, you should pursue that testing accommodation. There’s nothing shameful, there’s nothing misleading or whatever, about pursuing what you need to give yourself the appropriate opportunity to succeed. That’s, I think, the biggest truth that I think there are. There’s a mix of some people who pursue accommodations they don’t really need, and at the same time, people who genuinely do need accommodations, who don’t pursue them because they’re worried about what people might think. So I would say overarching truth is like all of this is fine and legitimate and ethical if you truly need it, and a lot of people have various needs that lead them to needing it. In terms of myths, one of the most pervasive myths is will schools that schools will see that you’ve received accommodations without getting too into the weeds of Americans with Disability Act compliance and regulation. That was a case on certain exams in the past, almost universally, for pretty much all standardized tests, as well as specifically for the SAT and ACT that is at no point communicated on your score report in any way, shape or form. Those are probably the two biggest myths of like, you know, am I going to get in trouble for doing it? No. And is it going to be shown up on my report? No, yeah.

Stefanie Forman 8:52
So I without getting too much into the weeds, like, like you referenced before, can you just kind of give us a general answer to who is eligible for accommodations. Typical

Jordan Schwartz 9:04
accommodations are for people with varying types of disabilities. So one of the most common is for people who need extra time. So that’s a very, very common accommodation that is typically granted to students with ADHD certain forms of anxiety disorder and certain medical conditions. And again, I won’t get too in the weeds about what applies to what, but that’s typically kind of how things work. There are also various medical accommodations. If you have diabetes, for example, or you have other needs that require you to go and do some sort of medical procedure. That’s pretty straightforward, but yeah, those would be, those would be, those would be the primary things. Obviously, if you have any sort of visual impairments or specific processing difficulties, those tend to be a little bit harder to get approval for, but it’s certainly possible, typically, what they’re looking for, from my experience, is something that is not kind of at its core. Connected to your cognitive ability. So things like a behavioral challenge with ADHD anxiety, whatever, they don’t view that as being kind of as part and parcel to your learning process, as something like dyslexia. So you know, those are still all of those, most issues that a student will have can certainly be considered. But what I’ve found that most of the successful students that I’ve worked with have done so on ADHD anxiety grounds. That’s kind of the most common one. And then obviously anyone who has any sort of specific medical issue has generally been able to get accommodations for that as

Lisa Bleich 10:39
well. I was just gonna say, Are you saying that dyslexia would not get it? It’s

Jordan Schwartz 10:43
it’s not that they won’t get it. They are covered under dyslexia. Dysgraphia are covered under the list of disorders for both the SAT College Board and the ACT organization. I’m just saying from my experience, the like, I had a student, for example, who had cerebral palsy, and that was very straightforward, because that’s unquestionable, right? You have this disorder, dyslexia and dysgraphia concert are certainly valid. But I’ve seen, I’ve just from anecdotal evidence. I’ve seen more challenges on that than things like ADHD or anxiety. It’s just my own anecdotal experience. Unfortunately, I and I did some research into this last night and over the weekend, there’s not really any sort of statistical breakdown that the college board or ACT provides, but just from my own experience, I’ve experienced some rejections or requests for additional information, seemingly on a greater basis for learning disorders versus behavioral and physical issues. This is very much a situation where someone, at some point, part of the process, understands what is needed, and they communicate it to a pretty decent degree, but there’s always a degree of subjectivity, and they can always decide, and I’m happy to talk in a moment about the denial and appeals process, but it’s just we kind of have to give it our best guess, of like, what we think is actually going to be approved. And, yeah, that’s just kind of my, my own experience.

Abby Power 12:06
I had a client a couple a couple of years ago, anyway, who had dyslexia and had been at a school until eighth grade for kids with learning differences. I mean, it was very well documented. She developed all kinds of amazing tools to overcome it. She was a highly successful student, and she couldn’t get accommodations. And I yeah, it didn’t even occur to me to research it. I just thought it was mistake, because who else should get accommodations? She eventually got them. But it was three appeals that sort of maybe makes more sense.

Jordan Schwartz 12:37
It’s so hard to know, and the and the other important consideration in this whole conversation is that s a t, sorry, it’s hard. It’s challenging to me because a c t is also the organization. So I always say SAT, ACT and College Board both have distinct processes, right? So, for example, I don’t know, and I don’t know what your student if your student was applying for the s was your student applying for the S A T or the A

Abby Power 12:58
C T, ACT, but also SAT for APs, for college board for a P S, but a c t,

Jordan Schwartz 13:03
and that’s a that’s also a different process that I’m less familiar with. I will just say it’s with the S A T, you don’t automatically get accommodation for the college for the AP exams if you get it for the S A T, but you do for the P S A T to the S A T, but yeah, so that’s definitely something to consider. And I would just say it’s one of those situations where all of the documentation requirements are listed. And, you know, that’s something that I help people with, and I also help, I do take on, you know, occasional clients who just are hiring me for the consulting on, you know, the accommodations, without working with us as a client. But really it’s the type of situation where it’s like, we just have to get all of the documents in order. And so starting as early as we can is best, and really trying to kind of anticipate, almost ahead of a potential appeal, what they might challenge to make sure that we can get that information ahead of time and give ourselves the best case. I think a lot of people just kind of figure, oh, I can just submit this or that and it’ll be fine, when, in reality, you know, they’re going to get challenged on the absence of certain information on the site that was listed. So that’s a lot of what you

Lisa Bleich 14:00
should have been wired. You should have been you think just, I’ve

Jordan Schwartz 14:06
just gotten very good at reading, reading complex documents and dealing with bureaucratic systems, and I’ve just got it’s just kind of been hardwired in my brain

Abby Power 14:15
along the lines of submitting the documentation. This is may come under myth and truth. I was always under the impression that you had to work with your learning services person at your school, and that’s who submitted the documentation, but I actually kind of thinking about it. Now, imagine that there are some schools that don’t have that kind of person. You

Jordan Schwartz 14:32
basically can do both of them on your own. I actually, I worked with a student, and we ended up getting them in accommodations in time, which was I wasn’t expecting. We had a very short turnaround over the summer, and the guidance counselor was out for whatever reason and wasn’t available, and so we had to submit it on our own. It is strongly encouraged and recommended on both exams to proceed through your testing coordinator, but it is fully possible to do both exam submissions without that because of that understanding that not every school has someone who can do that. Matter, some schools are just going to be totally overwhelmed. And so it’s just it. The reality of it, the way I think about it, is like, if you are someone who can be super focused, make sure you read everything and get through it. You could do it on your own. The purpose of doing through a testing coordinator, or, you know, working with me, or whoever else you find to help you with this process, is just to make sure that you’re not missing anything that’s

Stefanie Forman 15:22
really helpful. Yeah, these students are lucky. They have you lawyer Jordan as your advocate. I guess another thing that you’re saying is it’s best to start early, and like Abby, currently, I have a student in the appeal process with the AC t so when, when should these students and families? When? When should they be starting?

Jordan Schwartz 15:43
Oh, the first thing to keep in mind is when the actual deadlines are in the guide that I put together, I’ve listed for just all that. For 2025 I recently updated it all the different dates and deadlines. So for the sa t, that’s kind of the starting point, just to keep in mind so the SAT requires accommodations be submitted six to seven weeks ahead of the exam date. The A C T allows it up to two to three weeks before, but the A C T requires, basically, that the process be done by then. So a lot of people see those deadlines and think, oh, I can just submit everything by then and be fine. The A C T literally requires that, like all the appeals and all of the requests have to be submitted by that date. So with that in mind, with basically saying, you know, that gives us probably two months to just at a absolute bare minimum, I recommend, if you know, if you’re, you know, leading into your junior year, spring or, sorry, junior year, yeah, junior year, fall, if you’re over spring, sophomore to junior year, summer, get the process started. Even sophomore year, spring. You know, I have a lot of I have a lot of families who reach out to me freshman year and say, We want to start with sat tutoring. And I’m like, come back to me in a year, start doing these things first to get yourself in order. But like, time is very much your friend, just because you don’t want to be in a situation where you’re not potentially getting something that you’re entitled to because you didn’t start early enough. So I would say at a bare minimum, probably two months. But if you have, if you are a parent, you know listening to this podcast, chances are you’re a planner, and you’re somebody who knows that your kids are going to take these exams. So if you even have a freshman or a sophomore child, start looking into this, get the process started so that it’s all ready to go by the time that it needs to happen. I was

Lisa Bleich 17:23
always thought that you had to that the A, C, T, you had to already register for the exam before you could request accommodations. Has that changed?

Jordan Schwartz 17:32
That’s a good question. I would have to get back to you on that one. The way that I’ve always done it is that we’ve got basically gotten everything together and ready, and so done whatever testing is needed, and everything to meet the requirements. And requirements, and then submit it when we register for the exam. So I don’t actually know the answer to that question. I’ll have to get back to

Lisa Bleich 17:49
you on that. Yeah. I think that’s what it was. The SAT you were able to do, if I recall that you could do it before you register, but the AC t you had to register. And then

Jordan Schwartz 17:55
I think you are correct. Yeah, I think you are correct,

Abby Power 17:58
Jordan, just to go back to the accommodations that are available. Just really quickly. You said there’s extended time. So what does that look like? It used to be for the AC t that you could get multiple days, I don’t know. Seems like during COVID Lots, lots changed.

Jordan Schwartz 18:15
They have, I believe they’ve stopped the multiple days. What I’m sure they’ve stopped about what they’ve they used to have something called self pacing, where you could basically just get a set amount of time to do the entire exam. They’ve stopped that. So there’s a hard stop after each section the multiple days. I’ll have to get back to you on I’m not as sure about that one, but typically, with extra time, the most common is 1.5 times, so 50% more what I the way, I kind of think of it, is like, that’s what they’ll give you, just to kind of get rid of you. So get rid of you. And if you really want 2x you got to really push for it. There are extra breaks as well as a possibility that’s more typically allowed for medical issues. So if you’re diabetic or you have, you know, other blood sugar or whatever, urinary issues or whatever, they might give that. But yeah, typically, extra time is the most common. The other things that they offer are things like reading aloud. That’s a very common one that these tests, you know. So I also teach the LSAT. They’re very strict on that exam about reading aloud, if you like, mumble to yourself on the SAT or a CT. They’re probably not going to, you know, have an issue, but some students genuinely do benefit from being able to read the content aloud that would usually match up with some sort of auditory and conceptual processing issue. So that’s not something they’re just gonna hand to you. There are other things, like using a fidget spinner, standing up and pacing. And then there’s things like even things going down to like background noise that you can have in the room and spell check, which is less common, but when you’re talking about like a CT writing, and then there’s other things like alternate test format. So I know that you know, the SAT has already switched to a digital format. The AC T is switching to a digital format. I don’t know this for a fact. I would put substantial money on the belief that, because the SAP has allowed. Allowed continue to allow a printed version with certain accommodations that the AC T would do the same that also happened with the LSAT. It’s just an accommodation that you have to push for. But then you can get things even within that, like larger text. And there’s lots of different things based on your situation. And in the guide that I put together, I’ve listed all the all the possible ones you can get. But yeah, extra time is by far the biggest and then and then anything around exam setting, I think so, setting being your environment, which to me would include things like reading aloud or tapping or doing whatever else. Those are probably the two most common. That’s interesting. And

Lisa Bleich 20:34
I would think that if somebody was tapping or fidget spinning that then that would annoy the people next to them. So

Jordan Schwartz 20:43
they’ll usually put people in a special testing arrangement, which is some sort of separate room or separate arrangement. Yeah,

Lisa Bleich 20:48
right, because if I was taking it I’m I’d be solely stressed out Absolutely, and that’s why they don’t like people

Jordan Schwartz 20:56
I need up. Yeah, they don’t like people reading aloud for that specific reason? Yeah, yeah.

Abby Power 21:02
I know part of IEPs can be separate testing room. So

Lisa Bleich 21:05
it sounded like the easiest accommodations to get are extended time, one and a half times or a separate room. What are the hardest ones to get?

Jordan Schwartz 21:12
I would say that the extended time is still substantially easier for my experience than test environment. But just just to clarify that in terms of hardest ones to get, it, it’s so hard to say because I would say the vast majority of people who are seeking accommodations are seeking extra time. And so it’s not like people are like, I personally don’t know how difficult it is to get Braille right on your exam. It’s just something I’ve never dealt with. I would imagine that’s a things like that are probably pretty complicated. I would say probably 85 to 90% are the two that we just discussed, and then probably even less than 10% being all of the other ones,

Lisa Bleich 21:52
right? And do you think that there are some people that are getting extended time that don’t, I mean, this kind of gets into the ethical absolutely, that don’t need it absolutely,

Jordan Schwartz 21:59
so I’ve always viewed my role as being one of informing and, you know, encouraging people to be honest in the process. I believe that if you are concerned about the ethical quandaries or ethical ramifications of this decision, then, you know, just ask yourself, Am I being honest with myself? Do I really need this? And if the answer is yes, then you’re fine, right there. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pursuing what you are, you know, rightfully entitled to under the law, if you decide that you don’t need it and then you pursue it, you know, I don’t there’s not really anyone to stop you, but I would just encourage people to just be honest, and that’s really all that we can hope for.

Abby Power 22:40
Do you think those unjustified claim requests are often accommodated, or do you think that’s the exception rule?

Jordan Schwartz 22:46
So there, so there’s one other thing I want to mention on that discussion, is that there’s a belief. There’s a pervasive belief. And you know, I do obviously charge for my services. I’m not, you know, coming in here and doing this out of the goodness of my heart, but there are some providers out there who will charge exorbitant amounts of money for batteries of testing for students. I’ve heard of people charging five to $10,000 to do tests for students to demonstrate that they have X, Y or Z accommodation. If you find yourself needing to do that, like, yeah, you’ll probably get approved. But that’s when we’re getting in the point of, like, do you really need this? So what I would say is the vast majority, like, if you just go to your therapist or psychiatrist or whoever else, and you’ve been meeting with them for years, and you know, they can write a note about you, like, you probably don’t have to spend more than, you know, whatever your co pays are with your insurance on doing this entire process. So I would say, like I there are definitely specialists who I don’t do any sort of testing or whatever else I might my role when I do this side consulting is purely consultative and purely based on what do you have and what can you bring forward to submit most effectively. So yeah, I think there are absolutely people who submit what you would think of as unjustified claims that do get approved. I think that the reality of one of the any of these systems is, wherever you have regulation, you’re going to have people with means who can figure out how to get around them. And the hopeful purpose of any sort of regulation or requirement is that it serves the most people who need it. And the challenge with making it much harder to get accommodations is, yes, you would reduce some of the people who are getting it unjustly, but you’d also make it much harder for people who really need it. And I think that’s kind of where both of the organizations have come down, is like, it’s impossible to ensure a fully just situation, but let’s design it in a way that is going to help as many people without helping people who

Stefanie Forman 24:43
don’t. Do you feel like this, the lack of ethics that that’s present in your world? Do you feel like the College Board and the ACT have been, I guess, more aggressive in maybe denying people of their accommodations or. Or No, again,

Jordan Schwartz 25:00
it’s gonna, that’s gonna be fully anecdotal. We’re not talking about other exams today, but I have found, for example, like I’ve had some students. I don’t personally teach the MCAT. We do have one tutor on our team who teaches it, so we get occasional students for that. The I think it’s like the American Medical Colleges Association has been extremely strict on extra time requests, and, you know, I’ve even recommended to a couple students to, like, go seek a lawyer, because it goes beyond my ability to understand what is going on. I have not seen that same level of challenge put to the sat at the College Board and the ECT organization. Anything can change. I do know that as I was doing some research for this, the AC T had put out some data recently about their automatic approval rate. And so there are certain areas where they will basically, if you have the proper documentation and that’s justified, that it just rubber stamps it. The SAT is a little bit pager with their data. But I will also say that a lot of students who come to us already have accommodations, so we’re not helping every single student. This is, this is very much kind of an accessory component of my job that has formed out of necessity, but I haven’t seen an increased amount of skepticism applied to applications in any meaningful way that would suggest any sort of trend changing in response to those factors. You had mentioned

Lisa Bleich 26:19
that you don’t need to take those the testing, but I would say that a lot of students do need to get a neuropsych exam. I mean, that’s often to get their accommodations in school and those, I mean, I don’t know what the cost of those are now, but it could be between two and three or $4,000 to get a neuropsych exam. So

Jordan Schwartz 26:37
I what I would say, what I will say, is that if you are someone who will benefit from a neuropsych exam, you probably should already have that done by the time that you get around to applying for SAT accommodations. The idea of going and doing it specifically for these accommodations, in my mind, is a waste of money. No,

Lisa Bleich 26:56
I think that’s fair, unless you just didn’t realize that you had something. You know, because sometimes kids don’t, I mean, we find sometimes, of course, students are, who are, you know, bright, and they are able to manage themselves in middle school, for example, and maybe even freshman year, they can do okay. But then a lot of times, when they get into 10th grade, they start taking more honors classes. Maybe they start taking their first AP class. And then the way that they had approached learning doesn’t really work for them anymore, and they realize that there’s actually something that’s getting in the way that they were able to accommodate before on their own, but they are no longer able to so sometimes we find that it all comes to a head, and the family didn’t necessarily realize that there was something going on. And I think that’s legitimate. I see that. I’ve seen that happen Absolutely,

Jordan Schwartz 27:43
absolutely. And if you discover that in school in 10th grade, let’s say totally fair. I think that they my sense from, and I haven’t necessarily experienced this, but my sense from reading the guidelines and just the general vibe of what the information they’re putting forth is, is that that you know something being done for academic needs in 10th grade is going to be considered totally legitimate, significantly more so than a battery of tests done right before the exam by some fancy doctor? Absolutely

Lisa Bleich 28:13
right. No, I totally agree with that, because I we know we’ll always say, Well, do you get accommodations in school now? And if you haven’t, then it doesn’t really justify that you would all of a sudden need them, right? The

Jordan Schwartz 28:25
other thing to keep in mind that I do, I have had been in the fortunate position having done this long enough that I’ve had a few students who we’ve helped for the SAT and then helped for the LSAT or the GMAT or the GRE which is always a great experience, but several of those tests will consider whether you’ve received accommodations on those earlier exams. And so it can be beneficial to pursue them now, because the threshold of evidence and supporting documentation and whatnot does get higher as you get to those exams. And but a lot of times they’ll look at, oh, you gotta prove for it on the on the s, a T, or the A, C, T, that’s looked upon very favorably, precedent,

Lisa Bleich 29:00
right? See, you’re, you’re bringing all those law schools into what you’re doing.

Stefanie Forman 29:06
What, in general, do you know what percent of test takers get accommodations?

Jordan Schwartz 29:11
I don’t. I know it for the LSAT, but I don’t know it for the SCT or the AC

Stefanie Forman 29:14
T, okay, adequate. What is it for the LSAT?

Jordan Schwartz 29:18
Like, less than 5% but it’s, it’s been trending upwards. Okay, well, I would

Lisa Bleich 29:23
imagine, if everyone’s been getting them for the SAT and a CT, then this generation, you know, is coming into law school. I did have one student who got, was able to get them for the MCATs. Actually, it’s doable. It’s just a lot of work. Yeah, it was a lot of work, but she did, and, you know what? And she ace. She did so well in medical school. And she did really well, you know, so it was, it was definitely justified. So hard

Abby Power 29:43
worker, my friend’s daughter, tried to get accommodations for the MCAT. She had accommodations for the AC T she had long standing ADHD from and had had accommodations since middle school, but she never used her accommodations in school in high. School, and so MCAT denied her, yeah,

Jordan Schwartz 30:03
they, from my experience, are the strictest by far. They’re very strict. You

Lisa Bleich 30:08
need to be able to process information quickly and take lots of exams in medical school, so I feel like they really want it to be valid, which is sort of ironic, since they’re medical school, but that’s what it is. It’s a hard it’s a hard thing to go through medical school. So you they want to make sure that you can

Jordan Schwartz 30:21
that leads into one question I had of you guys, because you are more on the supporting students through the whole process of deciding which school to go to and the rigor and whatnot. Do you guys find that receiving accommodations? How does that usually translate when you actually go to college? Because that’s something that, quite frankly, I’m less familiar with, but like, if you, if you’re, what I always thought about is like, you know, if you’re getting 2x time on the LSAT, how is that going to translate when you go to law school, if you’re getting 2x time, or potentially other things, and then you’re going to college, and you have this environment that maybe is not as conducive to your those needs, how does, how do you find that affects the students that you work

Lisa Bleich 30:58
with? So it’s not the same as in high school, for sure. I mean, there’s but there is a a mechanism. You have to prove that you need those accommodations, and then the schools will allow for either extended time. But a lot of times it’s up to the professor. The professor gets to make the determination as to whether or not they want to provide those accommodations. And so it’s not, it’s not done in the same way. Certain things are easier to get like, if you need somebody to be a note taker, or you need to get like Kurzweil to read things to you, those are easier to do distraction free. Sometimes the professors will give it to you. Sometimes they won’t. It really depends. In fact, the first time I ever even knew about accommodations was when I was teaching at Whittier College, and I I got the report from the, you know, the learning difference. People that said, hey, you know, XYZ student needs to get note takers. I was like, oh, okay, so that was, that was the way that it was presented to me. And I didn’t really know anything from that, because it’s 20 years ago. I think the harder thing is the executive function, because when they go to school, and then if they if they’ve had, like, a parent who’s been helping them along the way. They don’t really realize how much help they’ve been getting, and so then they have to advocate and do things on their own. And that’s usually where things, you know, that’s where things can start to break down. And I would say in in law school is probably the same thing. I haven’t, I haven’t actually had anyone who’s needed accommodations for law school, but the one medical school young woman who did, she was she, she got them in medical school, and she now, she’s now doing her internship at Hopkins, so she obviously it didn’t hurt her. Yeah, I

Jordan Schwartz 32:31
think there really are some people who just, who just have trouble with these disease exams. It’s not necessarily translated into their overall processing ability. And that gets into a larger conversation about test anxiety, which is also something I work with a lot of my students on, but that’s not our discussion today. I do think that there are situations that were some students just genuinely struggle when it comes to these tests, and maybe don’t in other areas, but that’s also where those like generalized anxiety disorder diagnosis, diagnoses can be helpful in terms of explaining that specific situation, right? Because

Lisa Bleich 33:03
I just knowing that you have the time reduces the anxiety, right? Because you just know that you have it so you have to stress over it. This wasn’t actually on our this isn’t necessarily about accommodations. But one thing, one question, since we have you that we that I often get, is that we often get is, if you’re studying for the preparing for the s, a T, is it easy to transfer and then take the A C T, or vice versa? What do you think about that? I’ve

Jordan Schwartz 33:26
never been asked that before. I’m just kidding. No, that’s like the one of the most common questions, I guess, anything in the anything in the ballpark of s, a T or a c t, so I attrite, we just signed a client, not one of mine, but one of my tutors, clients yesterday who was specifically struggling, came in really struggling with grammar. And they were like, Well, should we do the SCT, AC? And I was like, let’s start with basic grammar skills. Let’s start with basic math skills, and let’s see how it goes. We’ll try some problems from each and we will see which one is stronger. That’s if you that’s if you are coming from the beginning and you don’t know, we also offer free diagnostic exams for the SAT and ACT. That kind of give you a generalized sense of what am I going to do better on but if you truly don’t know, there’s really no harm in starting with you know, doing your SAT prep, up to probably 85% of the content is going to be pretty darn similar between the two exams, and then there’s that last 15% that is what you have to kind of specialize and double down on to learn. But yeah, if you are switching over Absolutely, there’s going to be some things that aren’t relevant anymore, new things that are. They’re very, very similar exams, and I don’t usually find that to be an issue at all. I think the bigger issue becomes the actual structural differences between the exams far more than anything. Content really

Lisa Bleich 34:44
right? And that’s changing. When the ACT introduces the it is but

Jordan Schwartz 34:48
the content isn’t changing that much. The content is going to stay pretty much the same. The biggest challenge that people have on the on the A C T is dealing with the science section and the fact that math tends to be pretty quick. So. Still going to be quick. It’s going to get a little bit less quick in terms of how much time you have, per question. But the SAT has also started integrating more science, so they’ve really started to having done this for close to 10 years. And I’m sure, Lisa, that you’ve seen way more changes than I have over your career, but even just in the past 10 years, this is my third iteration of the SAT that I’ve worked with, what I’ve seen is kind of a push pull, where the s, a T makes a change a year, a couple years later, the A C, T makes a change to be more like that, and then the SAT says, Hey, we need to go back to the drawing board. Let’s change this more. I expect that to keep happening, but I think the core content and the core approach and what they’re trying to measure are going to remain the same. And that, to me, is supported by the fact that the actual specific sub score areas on, I haven’t looked at this for the new A, C, T, yet, but for the old SAT to the new SAT to the new SAT has remained the same. They haven’t actually changed the core competencies they’re grading you on. It’s just the presentation, the structure, the questions, but the there’s not much else they can test you on. With the philosophy they have about how these tests prepare you for college that’s going to change dramatically over the next few years or even decades, if you will. Well,

Lisa Bleich 36:08
I think it’s like the New Coke, just kind of, you know, bringing in different ideas. Yep, that’s aging, aging me here. That’s

Jordan Schwartz 36:14
the nice thing is that then we get to do new webinars every time they make a change, about all the changes, so exactly about

Lisa Bleich 36:19
all the changes that are really no changes at all. Right? Is there any advice or just last bits of advice that you’d want to give to families or students as they either approach seeking accommodations or just testing in general? As I’ve said before,

Jordan Schwartz 36:32
this, this applies to test anxiety. This applies to just general strategy. Time is always on your side. And I deal with a lot of parents and students who are extremely stressed about this whole process and are like, well, I need to do this. By this state. I need to do this. And if I don’t do this, then I’m going to do this. The only way that you actually end up in that situation is if you don’t start early. Obviously, again, if you’re listening to this and you’re a junior, or, you know, rising senior, and you haven’t done any of this like it’s not much help we can give you. But if you are, you know what I imagine the the target audience is people who are about to enter that process. Start early, right? You don’t need to start SAT, ACT tutoring until junior year, fall at the at the earliest. I would say sophomore year, spring is, quite frankly, not really necessary if you want to do some tutoring for the PSAT, because you really think that you’re in contention for national merit scholar, great, but vast majority of people start that process at the earliest junior year, fall.

Lisa Bleich 37:35
What about the summer? We have so many kids that want to start in the summer. They want to do it this before junior year.

Jordan Schwartz 37:40
It’s funny, like, you guys get to see the students when they’re when they update you, and I go, tutoring is going well, but I you know, we’re on the front lines of, like, okay, is this student actually going to be prepared and willing to put in the work I’ve started to recently, view my goal, my job, as being one of a consultant more than a tutor, right? I’m there to help students who are willing to really put in the work, do what I’ve assigned them, come back, reach out, take initiative on the process. Those are the students who do really well, the people who show up and are like, I’m here because my parents made me come here. If you’re that kind of student, don’t start summer leading into junior year. It’s just like, you’re most likely not emotionally mature enough. It’s just the reality to really take this process seriously. And that doesn’t mean everybody something. Again, this is always such a hard thing to say, because everyone’s at a different place of where they are and where they want to be. I will again, go back to my kind of initial assumption that if you’re listening to this podcast, you’re probably someone who wants to do really well, and I’m a believer in just really setting yourself up for success as much as you can, starting, you know, between fall and spring of junior year, giving yourself. You know, I find, for most people, the best calendar, let’s say you’re doing the SAT is like, have your first test be March of your junior year, so that that spring of your junior year have may as well on your calendar. Have the one or two of the summer administrations on your calendar, and then have they’ve actually recently added a September, but September, October, November, December are like your absolute fallbacks. And most people can’t do December anyways, because it doesn’t fit. But like giving yourself six test dates to possibly work from, is pretty much the extent of what you’re going to reasonably be able to do, because if you’ve taken it six times and you’re still not improving, it’s just like this probably isn’t your your thing. But yeah, I find a lot of people start really early and get really stressed, and that all fits in with all this other stuff about, you know, documentation, guidelines or whatever. So like do as much as you can to prepare your child to be in a position where Junior fall, Junior spring, they can really hit the ground running, but don’t, don’t, like, like, I’ve had a lot of families who come and say, we want to do all the tutoring, you know, a ton of tutoring ahead of the PSAT and then, and then it’s like, Oh, we got to wait six months. And it’s like, if you want to spend. And the money and time and energy on that, that’s fine, but I don’t generally find that to be a good use of people’s time, money and energy. Yeah,

Lisa Bleich 40:08
that’s good to say. I mean, it’s interesting. Anecdotally, I find that students end up doing really well on the senior year fall exam, like the early exam, but they’ve taken it all junior year, and then it’s just like, psychologically, they’re in a better place to do that, but hard to wait until that as your first test. So of course,

Jordan Schwartz 40:24
of course, yeah, I recommend taking that March and May of your junior year as dry runs, because you can score, because you can score choice and just just getting the experience of literally sitting down and in the test center, taking the test with the real stakes can do wonders for people, specifically those who are struggling with test anxiety.

Lisa Bleich 40:41
You know, it’s funny though, Jordan, don’t people worry about the AP exams in May? That’s what my kids always worry about.

Jordan Schwartz 40:47
That’s why, that’s why I recommend just viewing it as a dry run, just going in and doing it, seeing how it goes. Maybe, you know, a lot of times they will start working with a tutor, but it’s like, that’s our, that’s our chance to just go in. It’s never, you will always be able to do it. It’s never going to they’re never gonna, they’re never gonna over schedule, because they don’t do AP exams on weekends. But yeah, I would never, I would never put may as your like, ultimate absolute last date for the SAT because that’s just like, that would be analyzed.

Lisa Bleich 41:13
Yeah, no, I think that’s good advice. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, CBMers for tuning in. Thank you, Jordan, for this great episode, we will have all of your resources for getting accommodations on our podcast site. To catch more episodes of College Bound Mentor, make sure to Follow or Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. To learn more, visit CollegeBoundMentor.com Until next time, you got this!

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